Questions Answered by the Angelic Conflict

[Disclaimer: The quote below is taken from the Dictionary of Doctrine website. When I originally posted the excerpt below I purposely did not include a link to the source. The reason for this is that I recognized the materials to be taken from the work of R.B. Thieme, Jr. The Dictionary of Doctrine site provides no attribution that I know of and, knowing that R.B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is very vigilant in protecting their copyrights, I didn’t want the site to “go away.” I ended out discovering that the owner of the Dictionary of Doctrine site had modified some of Colonel Thieme’s teaching in a way that would have made him apoplectic. I notified some people who are associated with R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries of the existence of the Dictionary of Doctrine site. The site is still there and I have no idea if any action will ever be taken by R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries against it.]

This week I continue with another excerpt from an online book on the Angelic Conflict that I found a few months ago. Of all of the excerpts I have published I have the most mixed emotions about this one. On the one hand it brings up what I consider to be the most important questions that the Angelic Conflict answers (and most other theologies do not answer). On the other hand the author veers into date setting the Rapture of the Church which I believe to be a mistake. There is no prophecy, or event, that must be fulfilled before the rapture can occur. The rapture of the church can take place at any moment.

I always emphasize that this doctrine appears to be based on the teachings of R.B. Thieme, Jr. which is true. However, Colonel Thieme would never date set and this is an addition to the Colonel’s teaching. I have not, and do not plan on, linking to the site where I found this material because I am not sure if there is any copyright infringement (Colonel Thieme copyrighted his teaching so it could not be sold). I can tell you that inserting date setting into what certainly appears to be Colonel Thieme’s teaching would get a strong reaction from R.B. Thieme, Jr. Bible Ministries if they ever find out.


Questions answered by the angelic conflict[1]

Why Does Man Exist? As we have seen, mankind exists to resolve the angelic conflict. Man approaches the cross with free will; and under God’s plan — has the right to express positive volition by faith in Christ and to enter into God’s game plan — by being born again. Or, he has the right to exercise negative volition. When a person rejects the righteousness of God, which is imputed through faith in Christ — the work of the cross, (Rom 9:30; (2Co 5:21) and rejects the administration of the justice of God in pouring our sins out upon Christ, then God’s righteousness and justice would be compromised if He did not penalize the unbeliever with the Lake of Fire forever. Therefore, God is just as fair in casting the unbeliever in the Lake of Fire as He is in providing eternal life for the believer. (Col 2:14-15)

These passages demonstrate how the cross relates to the angelic conflict by showing that the angelic conflict would be resolved and the doom of Satan and the fallen angels would be certain if only one Person would be born perfect and submit to God’s authority to the point of death! (Php 2:5-11)

Why Does Sin Exist? Many people, especially idealistic people who tend toward asceticism, have great difficulty with the origin of sin. First of all, sin did not originate with God; it is absolutely incompatible with His essence; it is utterly impossible for Him to sin, to cause temptation, or to be the origin of sin in any way. We have direct statements of Scripture to the effect that God is not the author of sin. (Jas 1:13) But even from the standpoint of essence alone, He could not be. Why, then, did God permit sin?

The fact that man had to be given free will in order to resolve the angelic conflict also made it possible for man to sin. Actually, Satan set the pattern. His was the first sin, and it was a voluntary act involving his free will. The fallen angels followed suit by also making decisions of negative volition. Similarly, original sin in the human race, involving first the woman and then the man, stemmed from the exercise of negative volition by each of them.

Had man been created without the freedom to make his own choice, (Either negative or positive) there would have been no parallel to the case of Satan and the fallen angels, and the angelic conflict would not have been resolved. Angelic sin was judged; the sins of the world were judged. Christ chose of His own free will to go to the cross; He chose to be judged for the sins of the human race. He was qualified to be judged for sin, having no sin of His own. (2Co 5:21) So Christ is the issue of Salvation, and since He is the issue, we have free will. Our free will can express itself in faith in Christ; and we can be saved; or we can reject Christ and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Why Does Suffering Exist? There are numerous reasons for suffering as far as the angelic conflict is concerned, and we can easily understand that man’s fall and departure from perfection would inevitably lead to all kinds of suffering. Equally obvious is the fact that Satan with all his genius is incapable of handling his own kingdom — this world. (John 12:31) Suffering exists in this world to the extent that Satan cannot cope with the problems of the human race. He would like to create an ideal environment for humanity in his world, and he has attempted to do so by introducing the false Concepts of socialism, by declaring all men to be equal, by trying to provide enough money and a job for everyone; and by supplying so-called “social security” and Obama-care for all, etc. In every case his solution has failed. The United Nations; (And the League of Nations before it) represents a satanic effort to create a perfect environment and to eliminate warfare; however, its interference has only led to greater problems, and it will continue to do so. Satan is not “like the Most High,” and whatever he has tried by way of cure-alls has merely complicated matters and intensified suffering.

While the Church is on the earth, God permits suffering, (Sin nature, thought, people, system, and disaster testing; for believers to grow to Spiritual maturity) for the purpose of blessing. Through suffering, He demonstrates to you and to me that His grace provision is greater than the suffering itself; and that He has provided for every difficult circumstance through believing and Thinking with Truth; filled with God the Holy Spirit. Now it doesn’t mean that you are going to be blessed just because you are suffering. It all depends on your use of the Spiritual life! One of the greatest blessings of suffering comes through faith-rest which leads to occupation with Christ. When suffering is caused by discipline, the use of, (1Jn 1:9) turns the cursing to blessing.

Why Does the New Covenant Church Exist? Why has the angelic conflict shifted gears? Why not the New Covenant with Israel? Why do we have a change of Dispensation? First of all, the previous Dispensation, the Jewish Age Old Covenant Age was fulfilled, (Heb 13:20) and Israel as a nation rejected Christ. (Matt 23:37-39)

Christ started the New Covenant Church Age as a clone of Israel to be the steward of the Gospel and the canon: the full realm of Scripture. A Spiritual Kingdom; (Luk 17:21) with God the Father as the author of the plan; (Eph 4:4-6) with God the Holy Spirit providing a Temple, (Spiritual life) inside the believer; (1Co 3:16) for the Ruler-ship of Christ — in progressive growth levels; (Gal 4:19; Col 1:27; (1Pe 3:15; (2Pe 1:19) but not as a political or racial kingdom as Israel was. (Gal 3:28; Col 3:10-11) But a Theocracy: God Ruling each believer personally; through the Shekinah Glory — the LORD Jesus, the Christ! (Isa 37:16; Col 2:9-17) CHRIST is the key to the Eternal New Covenant of the Church, Tribulation and Millennium; made between God the Father and God the Son; Jesus Christ. (Eph 2:14-16; Heb 13:20)

Since Christ is absent from the earth during this Dispensation, His Body continues to represent Him as His ambassadors. This Body, of which Christ is the Head, is composed of all regenerate persons. (Believers)

But in the Church Age, the believer is the battleground for the angelic conflict, which is now inner, hidden and subtle. Only in the Tribulation will it come out in the open! (Rev 9:1-11) Which will begin when the G 20 agreement, ( G-20 London Summit) is broken in 2012[2]. (Dan 9:27) To survive in this conflict, we must have training, which comes through Spiritual Knowledge of Truth. Therefore, we will study a passage of Scripture which deals with our training and the equipment which God has provided for us to overcome and to move and to be victorious in the angelic conflict.


[1] Just so no one gets the wrong idea I would like to mention once again that this is not my original work. I believe that it is based at least in part on the work of R.B. Thieme, Jr who did some brilliant studies on angels and the angelic conflict (I link to his site in the sidebar). I am providing the information here because I firmly believe it is important for it to reach a wider audience.

[2] This most definitely does not come from the teaching of R.B. Thieme, Jr. No one knows when the tribulation will begin and to try and assign a specific date is called “date setting” and is a major mistake. For more on this see “Why Date-Setting the Rapture is Wrong” by Dr. Thomas Ice.

Explore posts in the same categories: Angelic Conflict

5 Comments on “Questions Answered by the Angelic Conflict”

  1. Metochoi Says:

    I was pleased to find your blog and your comments about the Angelic Conflict. The Angelic Conflict is a fundamental and foundational doctrine that every believer should understand. Sadly, however, it is a doctrine that is not taught in many churches and therefore many believers have no frame of reference whatsoever for the purpose of mankind.

    The first thing I always do when I read a blog is take a look at the teachers being referenced so that I can get a sense of the doctrinal position held by the blogger. In the case of this blog I was pleased to see familiar names such as Colonel Thieme, Dr. Robert Dean, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum and others.

    As I was reading through the Angelic Conflict posts I came across this:

    “Why Does the New Covenant Church Exist? Why has the angelic conflict shifted gears? Why not the New Covenant with Israel? Why do we have a change of Dispensation? First of all, the previous Dispensation, the Jewish Age Old Covenant Age was fulfilled, (Heb 13:20) and Israel as a nation rejected Christ. (Matt 23:37-39)

    Christ started the New Covenant Church Age as a clone of Israel…”.

    The section I quoted above is not in agreement with what scripture teaches about Israel, the Church and the New Covenant and I had to read this section a couple of times to make sure that I was reading it correctly. It seems to be inconsistent with the other things that I’ve read on the blog and is not in doctrinal agreement with teachers like Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

    For instance, Dr. Fruchtenbaum states in his teaching on “The Eight Covenants of the Bible-MBS021M”:

    “This covenant is made between God and Israel, and it receives further confirmation in other passages including: Isaiah 55:3; 59:21; 61:8-9; Jeremiah 32:40; Ezekiel 16:60; 34:25-31; 37:26-28; and Romans 11:26-27.

    The New Covenant is made between God and Israel and not the Church. However, there are scriptures that connect the church with the New Covenant as stated by Dr. Fruchtenbaum:

    “It is at this point that some confusion has arisen as to the relationship of the Church to the New Covenant. According to Jeremiah, the covenant is made, not with the Church, but with Israel. Nevertheless, a number of Scriptures connect the New Covenant with the Church (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:14-20; First Corinthians 11:25; Second Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 7:22; 8:6-13; 9:15; 10:16, 29; 12:24; 13:20).”

    Dr. Fruchtenbaum points out the following about Replacement Theology or transference :

    “The most popular solution in church history has been the theology of replacement or transference, which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel in its covenantal standing. Thus, the covenant promises are now being fulfilled in, by, and through the Church. It is obvious, however, that they are not being fulfilled literally and so they teach that the intent was for them to be fulfilled spiritually. But this solution requires an allegorical interpretation of the covenants and requires the ignoring of all the details such as the Land promises.

    This view has rightly been rejected by those who accept a literal approach to the covenants and these have offered two other solutions.”

    Dr. Fruchtenbaum explains that the Church relates to the New Covenant as partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings:

    “When the Messiah died, the Mosaic Law, the middle wall of partition, was broken down. Now by faith Gentiles, as Gentiles, can enjoy the spiritual blessings of the four unconditional covenants. That is why Gentiles today are partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings, not “takers over.”

    Dr. Fruchtenbaum says it this way:

    “Actually, the solution is not so difficult, for it is clearly explained in two passages. The first is Ephesians 2:11-16: Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    The second passages is Ephesians 3:5 6: which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it has now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

    This could be called the “partaker view.” The point of these passages is that God made four unconditional covenants with Israel: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. All of God’s blessings, both physical and spiritual, are mediated by means of these four covenants. However, there is also a fifth covenant, the conditional Mosaic Covenant. This was the middle wall of partition. Essentially, it kept the Gentiles from enjoying the spiritual blessings of the four unconditional covenants.

    For a Gentile to begin receiving the blessings of the unconditional covenants, he had to totally submit to the Mosaic Law, undergo circumcision, take upon himself the obligations of the Law, and, for all practical purposes, live as a son of Abraham. Gentiles, as Gentiles, were not able to enjoy the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants; hence, they were strangers from the commonwealth of Israel. They did not receive any of the spiritual benefits contained in the covenants. However, when the Messiah died, the Mosaic Law, the middle wall of partition, was broken down. Now by faith Gentiles, as Gentiles, can enjoy the spiritual blessings of the four unconditional covenants. That is why Gentiles today are partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings, not “takers over.”

    The concept of partaking is also found in Romans 11:17: But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and did become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; The Olive Tree represents the place of spiritual blessings of the Jewish Covenants. The types of branches partaking of the blessings: natural branches, which are the Jewish believers; wild olive branches, which are the Gentile believers.”

    To read Dr. Fruchtenbaum’s complete teaching on “The Eight Covenants of the Bible-MBS021M” visit Ariel Ministries: Discipleship page

  2. Glenn Says:

    Hi Metachoi,

    Your are correct that there is a lot wrong with the excerpt I quoted from. I should probably just delete this post but I haven’t yet. Your quoting from Dr. Fruchtenbaum’s work is excellent and a great addition, I might leave it up just for that reason.

    There are disagreements within Dispensationalism about the New Covenant and I haven’t spent the time to master the issues involved. If anyone is interested another good resource on the New Covenant is the paper “The New Covenant: Enacted or Ratified?“.

    Thank you for stopping by.


    • Metochoi Says:

      I think your idea to leave the quotes up is a good one. It provides a context for the issue that may allow anyone researching Replacement Theology/Covenant Theology to see the Dr. Fruchtenbaum’s explanation of the Church’s relationship to the New Covenant. The quotes:
      ” a clone of Israel ” and
      “Why not the New Covenant with Israel?”
      illustrate the confusion that exists inside the church regarding New Covenant and God’s relationship to Israel during “Time of the gentiles” and the Church age.

      Although Israel as a nation did reject Christ, God is not finished with the Jews and His Covenants with them have never been transferred to the Church. One day the “Time of the gentiles” will end and the Church will have served her role to take out from among the Gentiles a people for His Name, and secondly, to provoke Jews to jealousy. Then through Great Tribulation God will purge the rebels from among His people Israel and all Israel will be saved. “On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer depend on the one who struck them, but they will faithfully depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.” Isaiah 10:20 (HCSB)

      Then what Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 will come to pass, “For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, ‘He who comes in the name of the Lord is the blessed One’!” .
      God the Father will establish His Son as the King in Jerusalem Psalm 2:6-8:

      “Yet I have set my king Upon my holy hill of Zion. I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, You are my son; This day have I begotten you. Ask of me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.”

      • Glenn Says:

        Hello Again Metachoi,

        I agree with you that replacement theology is dead wrong. If any other readers are interested, I believe that Michael Vlach’s Theological Studies website is best online source for refuting replacement theology (he calls it by the more academic term “supersessionism”).

        Thank you for the comments.


      • Metochoi Says:

        Thanks, I’ll check that site out.

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